In my last post, My First Novenna - St. Joseph, I seemed to have possibly caused some concern for my Non-Catholic Brothers and Sisters. Being a Protestant for most of my life, I too shared this concern for my Catholic friends and family members - so I do understand where it is coming from, and I do not doubt that the concern is genuine.
Dave Armstrong, who I consider to be one of my favorite Catholic Apologists, has a blog called Biblical Evidence For Catholicism. He just recently posted a blog post titled, Asking Mary and the Saints to Pray for Us, Rather than Going Straight to God: An Introductory Explanation. For those of you interested in understanding why one would choose to ask for the prayers of the saints, or if you need some help in defending this practice, I would recommend reading this article.
Word of Caution: I have been known to spend a lot of time on Dave's site. It is full of great theological material on the Catholic Faith and Apologetics. Visiting his site can be habit forming. Enter at your own risk...
God bless...
11 comments:
I fully understand the whole concept of asking a fellow believer to pray for you.
That said, I am unaware of any verses in the Bible that imply that it is even possible to communicate with the dead. Can you point me to the verses that support this concept? I can find references to spiritists and mediums, but those practices are always forbidden.
I would assume, also, that if it were possible to communicate with the dead, you must always do it audibly. Otherwise you would be implying that the dead are omniscient, i.e. capable of reading your thoughts. I'm not real comfortable with the idea of the dead being able to read my thoughts.
It's important to define what it meant by "asking them to pray for you". Does the for imply "with" or "on your behalf"? I don't know about you, but I never ask someone else to intercede on my behalf. If I ask someone to pray for me, it is to join me in prayer, so that there are 2 or more people praying to God, including me. The problem I see with praying to saints (assuming for a moment that it is even possible) is that you are directing your prayers to them instead of God, effectively substititing your prayer with theirs so that there is still only one request being brought before God.
The third question I have about praying to saints is "why?" What would motivate you ask someone else to pray to God instead of you yourself? The underlying assumption here is what bothers me. Does a "special saint" (to distinguish between regular saints, which all Christians are) somehow have more "pull" with the Big Guy? Do their prayers somehow carry more weight with Him? That would imply that God shows favoritism. It's possible that he does play favorites; But keep in mind that Catholicism puts forth the idea that certain people are more holy than others. If you can accept that idea, then fine; for me, though, it seems wrong.
To me, the "saints" are just sinners like me who were redeemed by Jesus just like I was, so what am I gaining by asking them to pray on my behalf?
Weston,
So many things to comment on...
I am going to answer the immediate questions, the ones that do not take much time.
The problem I see with praying to saints (assuming for a moment that it is even possible) is that you are directing your prayers to them instead of God, effectively substititing your prayer with theirs so that there is still only one request being brought before God.
This danger / problem always exist, whether or not you are asking a "saint" to pray for you, or your neighbor. This is not a danger that is restricted only when asking for intercessory prayer from a Saint.
The third question I have about praying to saints is "why?" What would motivate you ask someone else to pray to God instead of you yourself?
The same question can be asked for why ask anyone to pray for you. This once again, has little to do with the idea of asking saints to pray for us, as it does to what is the purpose of asking anyone to pray for us.
I would assume, also, that if it were possible to communicate with the dead, you must always do it audibly.
I have actually never thought about this before...so I don't really have any comment... ;)
I am sure that I did an inadequate job of answering all of your questions....if you want to try again, let's take one thing at a time....
This danger / problem always exist, whether or not you are asking a "saint" to pray for you, or your neighbor. This is not a danger that is restricted only when asking for intercessory prayer from a Saint.
Agreed. However, I'm not familiar with the official position of the Catholic church on this; When asking a saint to pray for you, are you directed to offer up your own prayer also?
I'm also seeing some danger in the terminology used here. Both of us used the word "ask", which I don't see a problem with. When the phrase "pray to a Saint" is used, however, we start to enter some shaky theological ground. The first definition listed on dictionary.com reads "to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or and object of worship)." My problem here is that a Saint is neither a) God or b) an object of worship.
I'm concerned that this teaching has the potential to mislead people into thinking that they are praying to someone with actual power and worthy of worship.
Let me give an example of what I mean. This past weekend I was involved in a wedding at a Catholic church named after St. Anthony. As I was looking around, I noticed a plague on the wall that told about St. Anthony's life. On the plaque, it named St. Anthony as the "Finder of Lost Things". I wondered about this. It seems to imply that St. Anthony is the one doing the "finding", as he is the "Finder". My first impulse was to call it wrong. He's dead; he can't do anything, much less find stuff, on his own, only God can.
Now, a quick trip out to Wikipedia helped me understand somewhat what a "patron saint" is and does, but I maintain that it is somewhat misleading to the non-Wikipedia-reading population. Perhaps his title would be more accurate as "Guy who you can ask to pray to God to help you find lost things?" Not as catchy, I know; but can you see where the confusion can happen?
The same question can be asked for why ask anyone to pray for you. This once again, has little to do with the idea of asking saints to pray for us, as it does to what is the purpose of asking anyone to pray for us.
I would assume that asking people to pray with you has more to do with the amount of petitions being brought before God. This seems to be a characteristic of God; he seems to respond differently to groups of people than to a single individual. Think of it this way, imagine some Hebrew shepherd in the Old Testament times said, "You know God, I'm really getting sick of living among these Babylonians; they're really a bunch of jerks!" Contrast that to the entire nation of Israel groaning in agony about their captivity. Which one prompted God to lead them out of captivity?
Another example:
Random Israelite: Hey God, we could really use a king.
God: No. You already have judges.
Random Israelite: But other nations have kings! Why can't we?
God: You're not "other nations." You're my nation. And I said no.
Random Israelite: Please?
God: No. Stop asking.
Nation of Israel: We want a king!!
God: No you don't.
Nation of Israel: We want a king! Waaah!
God: Alright, alright. Fine. Here's Saul. Just don't say I didn't warn you. Don't come crying to me when he gets cranky and starts throwing spears at people.
These encounters with God in the Bible seem to indicate that, the more Christians that agree with you in prayer, the better chance you have of moving God's hand.
Agreed. However, I'm not familiar with the official position of the Catholic church on this...
For the official position, look here.
In short...when praying with the saints, you are always asking them to join you in prayer. Their prayers are never meant to replace your own.
I'm also seeing some danger in the terminology used here. Both of us used the word "ask", which I don't see a problem with. When the phrase "pray to a Saint" is used, however, we start to enter some shaky theological ground....
You are absolutely right. As a Catholic, I do not believe that a Saint is a god or the object of worship. Our use of the word, prayer today, typically means worship. Of course, that is not what it has always meant. It used to mean, and it can be still used in the context to mean, to make a request of (or according to dictionary.com "a petition; entreaty"). This is the context in which prayer to the saints is meant. We are making a request / petition of the saint to approach the throne of God with our prayers. The language of today, can make this difficult to understand. At the same time, improper understanding of anything can cause confusion.
I'm concerned that this teaching has the potential to mislead people into thinking that they are praying to someone with actual power and worthy of worship.
This would not be the first time that someone has mistakenly understood something from the Christian faith - but that does not mean that we abandon the truth of it. Someone may say, for instance, that through their experience of watching Christians, it would seem as though we worship a book. They see Christians on the knees in front of a book, we call our churches Bible Churches instead of Jesus Churches. Therefore, Christianity is a bunch of Book worshipers. Of course this is not accurate. Should the response be to get rid of the Bible? No. Instead, our response is to correct those with the improper understanding as to what is the truth.
Now, a quick trip out to Wikipedia helped me understand somewhat what a "patron saint" is and does, but I maintain that it is somewhat misleading to the non-Wikipedia-reading population. Perhaps his title would be more accurate as "Guy who you can ask to pray to God to help you find lost things?" Not as catchy, I know; but can you see where the confusion can happen?
Sure. That makes complete sense. I give you a lot of credit for actually digging and finding out more about what a Patron Saint is. It is definitely easier to jump to conclusions and add to the confusion of what Catholics think and believe.
Now, as a convert, I have learned that Catholics have a language all of their own. Many of the terms that I used as a Non-Catholic does not mean the same thing to me now as a Catholic. Prayer, for example is a big one. I used to get hung up with Catholics when they said that they pray to saints, because as a Non-Catholic, who actually understood what Catholics meant, I told them that it conveyed the wrong idea to Non-Catholics. It makes it seem as though Catholics worship saints. Now, with a better understanding of what the word prayer actually means, that it is not only worship, but also to make a request of, I am completely comfortable in saying that I pray to Saints. I ask for their intercession.
So, "pray to St. Anthony" is Catholic shorthand for - "Guy who you can ask to pray to God to help you find lost things?".
Proper understanding of devotion to saints is that they do not answer your prayers, aside for joining you in prayer to God. God answers your prayers alone. Saints do not have power, and are not gods. They are, like we are, part of the Body of Christ, except their participation is more complete because they are in heaven with Christ. We are joined to Christ, all of us - those who still walk the Earth and those that are enjoying the Beatific Vision in Heaven. One mystical body.
Understood. If you want to cast "praying to the saints" in the same light as calling up your buddy on the phone and saying "Dude, I totally smashed up my car the other day on the way home from the party, I'm going to need some serious prayer; I don't know where I'm going to get the money for a new one," I can understand intercession as "help" from other believers.
There are still a couple problems I see with it. First off, there's no feedback. The Saint has no channel to refuse your petition. Unlike your buddy on the phone, the Saint can't simply say, "No way man, I'm not praying for that; You would have plenty of money if you would just get off your behind and get a job. Now that I would pray for!" Is it just assumed that the Saint will automatically pray for whatever it is that you asked them to pray about? If the answer to that question is no, which I'm fairly certain it is, then how can you be certain that the Saint really is interceding on your behalf? How can I be certain that St. Anthony the Finder of Lost Things isn't up in Heaven saying, "You idiot, you don't need my help; You left your car keys in the ignition!"
The second is a problematic verse in the Bible. 1 Timothy 2:5-6. I actually found it when looking up the footnotes on the catechism page that you linked. (it's footnote 495 if you're curious) It says For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men — the testimony given in its proper time. This means that the Saints cannot mediate between you and God directly; only Jesus can fill that role. This doesn't mean that Saints can't help in the process, but it does mean that they'll need to go through Jesus just like you do. So you will be handing your petition off to the Saint, who will be handing the petition off to Jesus, who will be handing off the petition to God the Father. Seems like for everything except really important stuff (where you really want to get your message through by enlisting the help of many Christians) you should just cut out the middle man and go straight to Jesus.
Of course, all of this is a moot point until we actually answer the root question of "can we actually communicate with dead Saints?". Even reading through the Catechism you linked, I didn't come away with a clear answer. I know you need time to find the appropriate material, so I'll be patient. But I didn't want this fundamental question to get lost in the other discussion.
While reading through the Catechism you linked, I stumbled across something. It is somewhat off-topic, but I feel it bears mentioning, since we're talking about the dead and prayer: (958) "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective." This is very much contrary to what I believe. How can a dead person be "helped" and "loosed from their sins"? Once you're dead; your decision is final, irrevocable, and unappealable. No amount of prayer is going to tip the scales in your favor.
Weston,
Is it just assumed that the Saint will automatically pray for whatever it is that you asked them to pray about? If the answer to that question is no, which I'm fairly certain it is, then how can you be certain that the Saint really is interceding on your behalf?
This is more brain candy than anything. But, I like brain candy. Let us use the same scenario. You total your mom's car, and you pray to St. Anthony, that you do not get into trouble. What do you think St. Anthony would do in that situation? If you prayed to Jesus Christ that you would not get into trouble, what do you think Jesus Christ is going to do? Is He going to somehow protect you from getting into trouble with you mom? Probably not.
The simple point that I am trying to make is that those Saints that are in heaven, when they intercede for us, we do not know exactly and specifically how they approach God. We do know that their interest is in the salvation of our souls and they are always going to pray for that. They want us to be where they are, in heaven with them.
1 Tim 2:5-6 is only problemmatic if you interpret it to mean something that it doesn't.
To begin, start at the beginning of the chapter at 1 Tim 2:1-3. Clearly, Paul is instructing people to make request, prayers, intercessions be made for everyone. Why? If Jesus is the one Mediator, why get anyone else involved at all?
...you should just cut out the middle man and go straight to Jesus.
We are the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ (1 Cor 12). We are one Body and as one Body we help each other. Cut out the middle man? Why? There is no need to.
At the same time, we are all called to holiness, but even that is a process that benefits tremendously through the intercession of others.
"can we actually communicate with dead Saints?"
Matt 22:32. So since we know that they are alive in Heaven, and we know that they present our prayers before the throne of God (Rev 5:8), and we know that angels (which we call Saints as well) present our prayers before God Rev 8:3-4, I would say that yes, we can petition our brothers and sisters who have left this world is Christ's friendship, to bring our prayers before God.
This is very much contrary to what I believe. How can a dead person be "helped" and "loosed from their sins"? Once you're dead; your decision is final, irrevocable, and unappealable. No amount of prayer is going to tip the scales in your favor.
A very, very, very short answer. This is referring to purgatory. You are correct, once you die, your decision is final. Your destiny is secure. At the same time, when we die, we are most likely still going to have an inclination to sin - even if we died in the Christ's friendship. Purgatory is where those sinful desires are purged prior to when we enter into Heaven. Everyone in purgatory is heaven bound, they are just being purged of their tendancy / attachment to sin.
God bless...
Matt 22:32. So since we know that they are alive in Heaven, and we know that they present our prayers before the throne of God (Rev 5:8), and we know that angels (which we call Saints as well) present our prayers before God Rev 8:3-4, I would say that yes, we can petition our brothers and sisters who have left this world is Christ's friendship, to bring our prayers before God.
Oy. Are you sure those are the only verses in the Bible that support this doctrine? Oh well, let's jump into them then, I guess.
Matt 22:32 - I'm in agreement here, depending on your definition of "alive".Believers who have died still exist in some fashion, which includes a state of consciousness.
Rev. 8:3-4 - Angels called "saints"? By what verses do you support that? I did a search for every occurance of the word "saint" in the NIV Bible and came up with 68 occurances. Every single reference was referring to humans. However, there are only two angels named in the Bible, so it's not like there are a lot of angels to pray to.
Rev. 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
I see a number of issues with using this verse as the sole support for communicating with the saints.
Revelation is my favorite book of the Bible, but it's very difficult to use as a basis for doctrine. The reason is that it is filled with fantastic imagery and it is very difficult to know how to interpret. However, for any given verse in Revelation, there are two approaches to interpreting the text: Literal or Allegorical.
For this verse, the Catholic church has apparently gone with a literal interpretation. The problem is that you can't extract certain concepts as literal and some as allegorical. If you take the elders offering up prayers of the saints as literal, you must also accept the other implications of a literal interpretation. This means that you must accept that a) our prayers are delivered to God in a bowl and b) God does not hear our prayers; he smells them.
Now, I don't understand the metaphysical process involved in turning the electrical impulses in my head known as my thoughts, into incense in a golden bowl, so I'm inclined to view this verse as allegorical.
However, whether literal or allegorical, this verse says nothing of where the prayers in the bowl came from and how they got there. It does not say that the prayers were received from believers on Earth. In fact, those prayers could just as logically have come from the "saints" who are already in Heaven.
There's a larger problem with talking to the departed. Given that we've already established in previous discussions that only God can ultimately determine whether a person has received salvation, how can you be certain that any particular "Saint", such as St. Anthony, is actually in Heaven? For all you know, he could be in Hell. Unlikely, yes; but still possible.
There is one example in the Bible of someone communicating with a "Saint". In 1 Samuel 28, Saul uses the Witch of Endor (wonder if she was accompanied by a band of Ewoks) to conjure up the spirit of Samuel in order to ask his advice. She's terrified of doing it because she knows it is forbidden and could mean her death. Once she complies, the spirit of Samuel is not at all in a good mood. On the whole, this whole story illustrates that trying to communicate with the dead, saints or otherwise, is a bad idea.
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So, given that:
a) Intercession by "saints" is optional, according to the Catholic church
b) The method by which we would communicate our petitions to a Saint is not mentioned in the Bible.
c) It is unknown whether such communication between Earthly citizens and Heavenly citizens is even possible.
d) You cannot be certain if the person you are addressing actually resides in the presence of God.
e) It is stated multiple times in the Bible that we are forbidden to communicate with the dead.
... why would you even risk it, especially when it's optional? What are you gaining by petitioning a Saint? Another person praying with you? There are plenty of other Christians to be found on the Earth; why would you attempt to contact saints in Heaven?
Purgatory is where those sinful desires are purged prior to when we enter into Heaven. Everyone in purgatory is heaven bound, they are just being purged of their tendancy / attachment to sin.
I've never really heard Purgatory described this way; like a heavenly "decontamination chamber". I always thought it was more like the waiting room of a courthouse, where you sit and wait for your number to be called. So, in essence, you take a detour right before the pearly gates into a room where they hose you down with Lysol and then, once you've been deloused, you can head on in?
We should return to this topic some time in the future. I'd be interested to know what kind of Biblical support there is for this concept.
Weston,
Angels called "saints"? By what verses do you support that?
I am not appealing to Scripture when I describe Angels as saints. I am appealing to language and history. Saint, refers to the Latin word "sanctus" or holy. There are holy people, as well as holy angels. There are unholy people and unholy angels. Therefore the term "saint" to describe a holy angel is fitting. Saint Michael and Saint Gabriel are terms that have been used to describe those Angels for centuries.
how can you be certain that any particular "Saint", such as St. Anthony, is actually in Heaven?
This has to do with the canonization process. There are signs that we believe that God has given to the Church to let us know if someone is in Heaven or not. If you want to learn more about that...I would refer you here.
There is one example in the Bible of someone communicating with a "Saint". In 1 Samuel 28, Saul uses the Witch of Endor (wonder if she was accompanied by a band of Ewoks) to conjure up the spirit of Samuel in order to ask his advice.
Necromancy, is not something that is supported in the Catholic Church. We do not communicate with the dead in order to get their advice.
On the whole, this whole story illustrates that trying to communicate with the dead, saints or otherwise, is a bad idea.
No. It shows that conjuring spirits for the purpose of black magic or sorcery or to fortell the future is a bad idea. Asking your fellow members of the Body of Christ to pray for you, is a completely different thing altogether. If it was a bad idea, then Jesus Himself would be guilty of sinning (Luke 9:29-31).
Weston,
I see a number of issues with using this verse as the sole support for communicating with the saints.
I do not rely on this Scripture verse alone. I rely on the teachings of the Church as well. It is this same Church that used the teachings of the Apostles to identify what books would constitute the Scriptures to begin with. Unless you think that this "communion of saints" is some new invention of the Catholic Church, I will share with you some quotes of the Church Fathers, that have always enlisted the assistance of the saints passed in prayers.
Church Fathers
Not sure how much stock you would place in the Church Fathers, but from my point of view, I would rather take their word on many things as oppose to our own 21st Century American culture view of a culture that they were so close to...
Weston,
why would you even risk it, especially when it's optional? What are you gaining by petitioning a Saint? Another person praying with you? There are plenty of other Christians to be found on the Earth; why would you attempt to contact saints in Heaven?
You are correct. It is optional. At the same time, if you do believe, then there is no risk. As a matter of fact, there is only gain. We ask those who stand before God to pray for us because James tells us that the prayers of the righteous availeth much. Who is more righteous than those who are already in Heaven enjoying the Beatific Vision?
Regarding purgatory:
So, in essence, you take a detour right before the pearly gates into a room where they hose you down with Lysol and then, once you've been deloused, you can head on in?
That is an excellent way to put it!!! I believe that most Christians, whether they will admit it or not, believe in purgatory, they just don't call it that. Most of us believe that we cannot just die and walk right into heaven without some kind of change happening. Whether that change occurs in an instant or it takes time, we know that in our present state, we cannot enter into heaven - because nothing unclean will enter.
Catholics call this change purgatory. Non-Catholics, typically don't have a name for it, but will admit that some transformation needs to occur.
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